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Nothing Will Change Until Musharraf Closes Pakistan's Militant Madrassas
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#1
Administrator
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Nothing Will Change Until Musharraf Closes Pakistan's Militant Madrassas Posted: Jul 21, 2005 9:55 PM
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Discuss the story Nothing Will Change Until Musharraf Closes Pakistan's Militant Madrassas at

http://www.satribune.com/archives/200507/P1_ar.htm

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#2
bilrak
bilrak@hotmail.com


Posts: 10
From: India
Registered: Dec, 2004


Re: Nothing Will Change Until Musharraf Closes Pakistan's Militant Madrassas Posted: Jul 22, 2005 1:23 AM
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Excellent article - lays down exactly what needs to be done to curb this menace. One point, however, is that why do most Pakistani columnists think that it is the duty of the host country to ensure that its immigrants are assimilated ? After all these people migrated to ensure better opportunities for themselves and their children - its THEIR responsibilty to assimilate - like other immigrants, notable the Indians, have done. Also why do Muslim immigrants from Pakistan & India get so worked up about Iraq ? - is it because of the concept of the muslim ummah ?

#3
Narinder Dogra
dancescape@verizon.net


Posts: 96
From: Ca
Registered: Nov, 2004
Disabled

Re: Nothing Will Change Until Musharraf Closes Pakistan's Militant Madrassas Posted: Jul 22, 2005 2:41 AM
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You may take the donkey to water but you cannot make it drink.

It is same scenerio with Muslim from Pakistan. What I have seen at Bredford, Yorkshire, nothing more than juggies around in big cities in India. You cannot change them if they don't want to change. You cannot inject them with some prescribed medication to integrate in the Western socities.
They could not even integrate with Hindus in India. Thats why Pakistan is different nation.

Their loyality is with Saudi Arabia. Every thing else does not count.

Muslim in general have very high morals, some times so high that they come in way of their integration in any society.
I used to share apartment with a Muslim friend from Iraq. I learnt a lot from him. He had been good influence on me.
But one incident I have never forgotton. I had changed my job for better prospects and got higher salary. He was upset with me not because I got higher salary but he thought that I lied to new employer. He did not understand the concept of negotiations. He was the most brilliant engineer I ever came across.

You get my point!

#4
Indian
indian@aol.com


Posts: 533
From: post
Registered: Sep, 2003


Re: Nothing Will Change Until Musharraf Closes Pakistan's Militant Madrassas Posted: Jul 22, 2005 2:54 AM
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I disagree with the title of the article.

Nothing will change until and unless the army is sent back to barracks and ordered to stay there by a civilian government that is freely and fairly elected by the people.

Then that government orders the army to stop interfering in the running of the government. It is going to be a hugely bitter pill for the army to swollow; after all these years of being a corrupt institution at the helm of all Pakisatni affairs and treating the country as their own personal and private property, to do with and treat it as they please.

#5
Sheraz Ahmed
docsheraz@gmail.com


Posts: 213
From: U.K
Registered: Feb, 2005


Re: Nothing Will Change Until Musharraf Closes Pakistan's Militant Madrassas Posted: Jul 22, 2005 3:45 AM
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ND
What I have seen at Bredford, Yorkshire, nothing more than juggies around in big cities in India.

i dont think thet u have ever visited the some areas of east london where indians are living in good numbers with same juggies ......

#6
Hassan
hax_123@hotmail.com


Posts: 4
From: Pakistan
Registered: Jun, 2005


Re: Nothing Will Change Until Musharraf Closes Pakistan's Militant Madrassas Posted: Jul 22, 2005 3:52 AM
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Has anyone ever thought that where did this islamic extrimism get its roots from???? no never....the west should look at its policies towards the Muslims and then speak of anything that goes against them. The way Indians or Pakistanis are treated by the "Western/christian extremists" is something that should be looked into as well....
these terrorist attacks come out of frustration that is caused by the sufferings of the Muslims at the hands of these christian extremists...
it was definitely disturbing to see a comment from an indian like that......even indians are not treated well there...anyway that is wat can be expected from such indian hardliners...AND YES IT IS THE HOST NATIONS RESPONSIBILITY TO PROVIDE IMMIGRANTS A FRIENDLY AND CONDUCIVE ENVIRONMENT TO LIVE THEIR LIVES AS THEY WISH BECAUSE THEY PUT IN A LOT OF EFFORT WHILE WORKING IN THAT COUNTRY.....

#7
Hassan
hax_123@hotmail.com


Posts: 4
From: Pakistan
Registered: Jun, 2005


Re: Nothing Will Change Until Musharraf Closes Pakistan's Militant Madrassas Posted: Jul 22, 2005 4:00 AM
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Muslims can never integrate with hindus in India because they hav separate ideologies.....they are two different nations.....hello the TWO NATION THEORY...the basis of Pakistan's foundation....Indians can never accept that muslims managed and succeeded in breaking away from the traps the Hindus had been setting up for them all along.....

#8
Kamal
kam_bhar@yahoo.com


Posts: 97
From: Coventry UK
Registered: Jun, 2003


Re: Nothing Will Change Until Musharraf Closes Pakistan's Militant Madrassas Posted: Jul 22, 2005 4:50 AM
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"i dont think thet u have ever visited the some areas of east london where indians are living in good numbers with same juggies ...... "

Which area do you mean? could you let us know whichof these areas you have been to.

Thanks Kam

#9
SC Gupta
scgupta5@indiatimes.com


Posts: 283
From: India
Registered: May, 2005


Re: Nothing Will Change Until Musharraf Closes Pakistan's Militant Madrassas Posted: Jul 22, 2005 5:29 AM
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w.r.t. #7 Hassan

There we go again. Another cricket match with 2-nation theory.

May be we should have one-dayers now with time restrictions & an unpire to start with!

#10
nasah
nasah29@aol.com


Posts: 1,168
From: USA
Registered: Aug, 2003


Re: Nothing Will Change Until Musharraf Closes Pakistan's Militant Madrassas Posted: Jul 22, 2005 12:00 PM
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while Musharraf the Preacher reislamizes unislamic Pakistan thru yet another -- according to Fatin -- auditory assault -- on the EARS of the country -- Pakistan takes a big YAAAAAAAAWNNNNNNNN..

...what else is new in the Musharruffian Messiahdom...

meanwhile.....in London there is a running battle in the underground tube right now between the extremists and the police.....

the stupid overzealous policeman shot the presumed terrorist guy while he was pinned down on the floor of the train under the weight of 3 police men...

...sounds like the policeman was a member of al Qaeda -- he shot -- 5 TIMES! -- the pinned down terrorist man before he could SING about the terrorist network in London......didn't occur to the gun-tottin Bumbling Bobby the dead man would have been more 'useful' alive than dead....

#11
Fani
silentpak1@yahoo.com


Posts: 34
From: Canada
Registered: Sep, 2004


Re: Nothing Will Change Until Musharraf Closes Pakistan's Militant Madrassas Posted: Jul 22, 2005 12:25 PM
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The problem is not Madarassas, the problem is the mullah's associated with Army.
The religious schools have been there for a long time and they were never involved in any sectarian or so called terrorist activities. It all started by Uncle Sam when Russians invaded Afghanistan. CIA and US government were looking people to fight Russians in their proxy war.
As usual, the long trusted puppets of Napak Army came to the rescue and presented CIA with the concept of Jihad. CIA liked the idea and showered ISI with billions of dollars (evident by the rich families of Zia, Akhtar Abdul Rehman and others), arms and helped to train poor students from religious schools. This could not have been done without baiting Mullah's like Fazlu and Co.
These satins sold the often poor, orphan students from their religious schools to be used as fuel for the proxy war (they themselves never went to actual battle fields).
Now at that time these religious students were assured that once Russians are defeated, they can have an Islamic government in Afghanistan.
Again as usual, Uncle SAM betrayed his allies and told them that an Islamic government is unacceptable. That was the turning point for these religious students. Now even Fazlu and Co. cannot control them as these students have seen the true faces of these mullahs.
As far as the terrorist attacks on religious places in Pakistan, this is all done by ISI. Interestingly no one ever has been caught in these incidents, although they have the power to pick any citizen and sell it to foreign country. Musharraf is using ISI to do these terrorist attacks so that he can "cry wolf" to the west and remain as the King.
Fazlu and Co. are still the B team of ISI and waste no chance to get benefits from Musharraf.
Despite taking 80% of total budget these so called jawans of Napak Army are unable to defend the sovereignty of their state.
Despite of a Pakistani origin, I must salute Indian army for the following reasons:
1-Since 1947, Indian army has successfully defended its territory and increased the land size. On the other hand napak army has not only failed in all aspects but caused the reduction of total land area of Pakistan. Anybody doubtful, just check the total land area of India in 1947 and today and then do the same for Pak.
2- Indian army never handed over any of its citizen (muslim or hindu) to any foreign country
3- Indian army never gifted its bases or allowed any foreign country to build any base in India
4- Indian army and government never allowed any foreign investigation team to roam free in India
5- Indian army never guided any foreign forces and pointed targets to any of its citizens (muslim or hindu)
6- Indian Generals never took the army as their father's property while Musharraf openly calims that the napak army is loyal to him (not to Pakistan)
6- Most importantly, Indian army never toppled any democratically elected government and neither killed a prime ministers. Napak army working as puppet since 1947 has killed 2 elected prime ministers.
I know there will be "scholars" arguing with me and the most common line will be, "Pakistan is a different country". Different in what aspect? We have the same climate, same type of land, got the same army, judiciary and civil structure from British. How come Indians gone that far? The only answer is the difference in Armies.

#12
Masood
m.bhatti@c2i.net


Posts: 28
From: Norway
Registered: Dec, 2004


Re: Nothing Will Change Until Musharraf Closes Pakistan's Militant Madrassas Posted: Jul 22, 2005 3:12 PM
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I have some questions to aks:
1.Are we muslims different kind of human beings?
2.Are we superior to the followers of other religions? if so,how.
3.Is our idology which has proved to be a total faliure, can be considered a divine knowledge?
4.How long have we to suffer in our own homelands? Whats our fate?
5.Do we really follow Islam, or just pretend to be muslims?
6.Terrorists seem to be a 73rd sect(FIRQAH) of islam with its ideology of terror and killings. Are they not going to be the last nail in the coffin of our religious identity?

#13
jayen
jupadhye@hotmail.com


Posts: 62
From: India
Registered: Nov, 2003


Re: Nothing Will Change Until Musharraf Closes Pakistan's Militant Madrassas Posted: Jul 22, 2005 7:12 PM
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Hi,
#16, #17 congratulations..
NOT because you are "appearing to be tilted" away from pakistan, but becasue you have shown refreshing courage in asking basic simple questions every muslim needs to ask of himself ..
Normally in such dialogues, muslims switch on their "typical mode" ..
1 - We muslims are different. (the sheer arrogance of that statement amazes me).
2 - We will not change! (this too has implied arrogance to it).
3 - Islam is complete (Baba anything is complete is done for in this world of constant change..a 1000 years from now, muslims will have to hide their faith in shame as it will be so outmoded and backward!) Hindus had the wit to throw "manu-smriti" stuff into their basements for "strictly intellectual and clinical analysis only" and adopt modern approach. Our renaissance was over by the time ram mohan roy had come and gone. Hindus know that religion and politics do not mix. The difference is for all to see.
4 - The sword (might is right) is very very respected by most muslims as though might is itself the "all" for "all".
Hence the cowtowing to "powerful" superpowers, hence the dictators at the helm of power, hence the army rules..
5 - Muslims somehow "look down" on women and treat them as objects of desire. A chance encounter with a bangla biman officer and a pakistani cab driver (meet droves of them abroad) is enough.
Why do all these people constantly think "how many more women can i have"? is beyond me. It appears being a muslim makes the males arrogate the right to "have women" to themselves.
The role of the pakistani army in bangladesh, the antics of the muslim "freedom fighters" "leave your daughters behind" advises to kashmiri pandits...speaks volumes about muslims in general.
I had a well educated engineer tell me in all sincerity "it is allowed in islam! you can take the women of your enemy it is allowed!" And this in the 20th century! Kamal hai is all i could say in wonder.
Congrats to you..you have atleast started to question.
THAT will make the fundamentals of your society more secure.
After all banning sati did not weaken hindus, banning religious terror wont do so for you guys too.
Jayen

#14
Hassan
hax_123@hotmail.com


Posts: 4
From: Pakistan
Registered: Jun, 2005


Re: Nothing Will Change Until Musharraf Closes Pakistan's Militant Madrassas Posted: Jul 23, 2005 1:59 AM
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i had a great laugh at the statement that Indians got Pakistanis independance...maybe the honourable person is not aware of history at all.

anyway i do not say that terror killings are right. A few groups and individuals who resort to it do not do the right thing and they bring bad name to their faith and respective countries.

it is definitely wrong to say that we Muslims are superior than the people of other faiths infact our religion is the only one which emphasizes on acceptance of other faiths as a muslim who denies other prophets sent by God is not a true muslim....

The concept of Muslim ummah does not show that muslims want to be isolated....this concept is just to unite the muslims for their own benefits as a community (not hurting the feelings and benefits of other faiths)

blaming the whole muslim community has deep impressions on minds of people which can truly be seen through the views expressed here....

i do agree that right now the MUSLIMS across the world do not have good leadership...

mostly if u see the leaders are not elected by the people and are imposed on them..so they are not true representatives of the people..which is not serving the cause of representing the true identity of muslims...

but Muslims of this region were involved in such activities when USA armed them trained them and sent them to Afghanistan to fight against the Russians (rightly said by #17)

This is just propaganda against the Muslims to make them so weak that they can never unite..bcoz that wud be a real problem for everyone in the world...

#15
Jameel Afridi
j_afridi10@hotmail.com


Posts: 33
From: Bahrain
Registered: Mar, 2005


Re: Nothing Will Change Until Musharraf Closes Pakistan's Militant Madrassas Posted: Jul 23, 2005 5:25 AM
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Suggest our dear friend Ahmad Rashid should actually enroll in a Madrassah for a 3 year Dars-e-Nizami program and share his impressions with us. I am sure he is going to love the experience. He will find it a lot more exciting, enriching, and varied; than the limited world of drawing room chats over a Black Label, followed by a mandatory throw up visit to the Commode.

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