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The 'Officially Certified Truth' About Kargil
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#1
Administrator
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The 'Officially Certified Truth' About Kargil Posted: Nov 29, 2003 12:37 PM
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Discuss the story The 'Officially Certified Truth' About Kargil at

http://www.satribune.com/archives/nov30_dec6_03/opinion_mazari.htm

Your message will be posted unedited, but we reserve the right to edit or remove any message


#2
Khan
solidfuelmissile@yahoo.com


Posts: 77
From: San Diego
Registered: Aug, 2003
Disabled

Re: The 'Officially Certified Truth' About Kargil Posted: Nov 30, 2003 8:57 PM
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First, the authors comments speak about his own patroitic fervors.

Second, his comments that it is a useful exposition of Pakistani view point and then his regrets immedietely there after speaks about his Illogic thinking because on one side he is talking about Shireen Mazari's EXTREMELY USEFUL EXPOSITIONS and Then Immediately regretting her expositions that he described as useful.

---------------------------------
While Shireen Mazari's book is an extremely useful exposition of the Pakistani viewpoint, one can only regret that she allowed patriotic fervor to override the claims of objectivity.- Courtesy 'Frontline'

#3
nasah
nasah29@aol.com


Posts: 10
From: USA
Registered: Aug, 2003


Re: The 'Officially Certified Truth' About Kargil Posted: Dec 4, 2003 11:07 PM
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Kargil -- a diabolically deceitful and a fiendishly foolish adventure that could only come out of the Kargilian Brain of a renegade Army Reptile -- that bit the very hand that fed him -- and devoured the very country -- that provided him with food, shelter, and a uniform to strut around like a peacock...

#4

null


Posts: 102
From: Not applicable
Registered: Sep, 2003


Re: The 'Officially Certified Truth' About Kargil Posted: Dec 5, 2003 2:11 PM
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Another review of the same book by Arif Jamal as published in Jang.

http://jang.com.pk/thenews/nov2003-weekly/nos-30-11-2003/dia.htm#1

Danial Jameel: Correct me if I'm wrong - I believe you work with Ms Mazari right in PISS (Pakistani Institute of Strategic Studies)? What do you think of her book or her as person? I mean, every Wed morning like clockwork - publishing a op ed piece in Jang blaming hindus-jews-americans! And she has the President's ears!!

#5
Danial jameel
danial_j@hotmail.com


Posts: 137
From: Toronto
Registered: Jul, 2003


Re: The 'Officially Certified Truth' About Kargil Posted: Dec 5, 2003 3:22 PM
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No that is in Islamabad, i live in Karachi. The institute that i am a member of is called the 'Pakistan Institute of International Affairs' its been around since 1930....

Since Mr.ahmed Sheikh told me in one of his posts that he knows Ms.Mazari, i think he would be in the best position to answer your question.
However i have the book with me and ill let you know what i think as soon as i finish it (too busy with The New Great Game by Lutz kleveman right now).
I also like to remind you that the funding for the PIIS is supposed to come from the government, so i doubt they would be critical about the government (ill confirm on this).

#6
ahmed sheikh
asheikhwashdc@yahoo.com


Posts: 823
From: Washington DC 20045,District Of Columbia,US
Registered: Aug, 2002


Re: The 'Officially Certified Truth' About Kargil Posted: Dec 5, 2003 5:13 PM
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Editor
South Asia Tribune

Sir:

In posting No. 05 above the writer is again resorting to lies as is his wont. In posting No. 173 on another forum (> http://www.satribune.com/thread.jsp?forum=3&thread=1057&start=100&msRange=100&tstart=0&trange=100 <) he had claimed the following on November 20, 2003: "I am living in Pakistan and apart from conrtibuting articles to major enlish newspapers in Karachi, i am also working with the institute of strategic studies."

2. Now Mr. Danial Jameel alias 'Pundit' has filed a new claim in posting No. 05 above in the following words:"The institute that i am a member of is called the 'Pakistan Institute of International Affairs' its been around since 1930...." For God's sake, Pakistan came into existance in 1947 but he claims that 'the Pakistan Institute of Internation affairs, of which he is a member, has been around since 1930!' What a bogus statement?

3. In posting No. 05 Mr. Danial Jameel has also claimed the following, "Since Mr.ahmed Sheikh told me in one of his posts that he knows Ms.Mazari, i think he would be in the best position to answer your question." In which post did I make that claim?

4. It is obvious that Mr. Danial Jameel has an uncontrollable urge to lie, (just like the pack of Indian crossborder E-mail jackanapes/terrorists who prowl these forums to sidetrack the issue and spread Hindutva-fundamentalist, Neo-Nazi dezinformatsiya) a trait typical of all congenial, brazen, baldfaced, barefaced, boldfaced, revolting, pusillanimous liars.

5. I have not yet read Ms. Shireen M. Mazari's book, "The Kargil conflict 1999 - Separating Fact from Fiction." As soon as I do, in a day or two, I will be in a position to comment on what she wrote. Off the cuff I have no hesitation in saying that Kargil operation, soon after India's Himalayan blunder at Pokharan in May 1998, was a brilliant stethoscopical military maneuver by the Pakistani planners which achieved its objective. However, the unread Faujis in Pakistan, in my opinion, did not know how to divide their ambitions by their limitations. More on Kargil later.
Ahmed Sheikh
Washington DC
Tel: 202-637-9212

#7
Amit Verma
a_verma@hotmail.com


Posts: 148
From: New York
Registered: Jan, 2003


Re: The 'Officially Certified Truth' About Kargil Posted: Dec 5, 2003 8:58 PM
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To
Editor
SA Tribune

Sir,

Mr. Sheikh is back with years of baggage of inferiority complex he has been carrying since his POW days after the 1971 defeat. This is very clear if one was to read the venom this old man is spewing in Para 4. in his post above.

With regard to the article under discussion, I agree with the author in parts. However, don't agree with her assumption that had the conflict continued, it would have led to a stalemate and forced India on to the negotiating table. I would like to briefly recreate the timeline of this conflict to support my view.

June 1. Combat is raging in the Dras, Kargil and batalik sector as the Indian's introduce the Bofors guns and continue pounding the heights using IAF (The Indians have already lost 2 MIG's and 2 Choppers by now).

June 5. Clinton comes out in strong support for India's position and states that he has written to Sharif to take steps to diffuse the crisis immediately. (Note. there is still no talk of any withdrawal or negotiations).

June 6. Air operations are suspended and Indian army makes significant gains in the Dras and Batalik sector. However, Tiger hills, Tololing and point 5140 still remain occupied which are strategically costing the Indian army heavily.

June 7 Major offensive is launched to reclaim Tololing hills and Tiger Hills. Air strikes are resumed.

June 13. Tololing hills are reclaimed after heavy losses on both sides.

June 14. Indian Army captures point 5140.

June 16. In the wake of heavy artillery fire and air strikes, the enemy is pushed back to within 3 km of the LOC. However, Tiger hills still remain occupied, which is causing heavy losses to the Indian Army.

June 27. Sharif sends Niaz Naik to have secret negotiations with Vajpayee. He is told that there will be no talks till Pakistan has withdrawn every soldier from Indian side of the LOC.

June 29. Peak 4700 is reclaimed. The Indian army is close to reclaiming the peaks of Tiger Hills.

June 30. Indian Army reclaims peak 5100.

July 4. India captures the all important Tiger hills.

The point I am trying to make is that when Sharif met Clinton on July 4, he was not meeting Clinton from a position of authority as far as the ground situation in Kashmir was concerned. Pakistan army and the mujahidins had already got a drubbing from the hands of the Indian army by the first week of July and even if Sharif had not agreed to a withdrawal, the infiltrators would have been flushed out in a matter of weeks.

Regards
Amit

PS. Sheikh, only a dinosaur like you who has spent his entire life wrapped up in a blanket of hatred towards a neighboring country can consider Kargil a brilliant stethoscopical military maneuver. What Kargil did was the following:

1. Pakistan got established as the aggressor in the eyes of the international community and on the border line of being declared a terrorist state.

2. The morale of the Pakistan army came to an all time low probably since the drubbing they got in 1971.

3. Thirdly and all importantly, it pushed back the peace process between these two countries by at least 5 years.

#8
parameswaran n.s
paramnsp@hotmail.com


Posts: 29
From: chennai-india
Registered: May, 2003


Re: The 'Officially Certified Truth' About Kargil Posted: Dec 6, 2003 1:10 AM
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Mr Ahmed Sheikh

Objective criticism and analysis is one thing, and subjective pathological blind hatred is another.I have been reading all the discussions in this forum and your postings are there in all.
The blinding total and pathological hatred for India and Indians is very obvious. That being the case, how can there ever be a discussion. You keep posting your hatefilled views and others respond in kind. where is the discussion.
Every country/people/race/individual have faults, infirmities and will commit actions which others will not like, object or find wrong. But one does'nt go about hating them. We will end up hating the world.

#9
Khan
solidfuelmissile@yahoo.com


Posts: 77
From: San Diego
Registered: Aug, 2003
Disabled

Re: The 'Officially Certified Truth' About Kargil Posted: Dec 6, 2003 5:28 AM
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So if India gets Tiger Hill back, it means that it has the upper edge. What about the hundred of kms of line of control that was still in Pakistani control.. Thats just like saying that we won last cricket match and so we are the best..How about the last 30 years of losing?.

YOu have typical inferiority complex with no limit to your **** talking.

--------
July 4. India captures the all important Tiger hills.

The point I am trying to make is that when Sharif met Clinton on July 4, he was not meeting Clinton from a position of authority as far as the ground situation in Kashmir was concerned.

#10
Amit Verma
a_verma@hotmail.com


Posts: 148
From: New York
Registered: Jan, 2003


Re: The 'Officially Certified Truth' About Kargil Posted: Dec 6, 2003 7:31 AM
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Khan Sahab

You have totally lost me there. You seem to be smoking some high quality stuff these days. What about the hundred of kms of line of control that was still in Pakistani control, not sure if you followed the time line corrrectly, but you never had those hundreds of kms of line of control buddy. Stop smoking that high quality afgan stuff that you have been getting for years and face the reality, otherwise you will continue making an ass of yourself like always.

Cheers!!
Amit

#11
sanjay sen
sen738@aol.com


Posts: 13
From: uk
Registered: Sep, 2003


Re: The 'Officially Certified Truth' About Kargil Posted: Dec 6, 2003 12:40 PM
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Amit,
Didnt quite understand why are you wasting your time!!
There is no need to smoke Afghan stuff--kyun ki yeh stuff unki solid bheje me ghus hi nahi sakti/yeh to andar ki baat hai.
Have you heard the story of the ostrich who buries its head in a ditch and thinks nobody can see it!This is an example of DENIAL.
Times and again Paki army has been humiliated in front of everyone ,we dont need to prove it.We are proving ourselves where it matters.
regards

#12
Danial jameel
danial_j@hotmail.com


Posts: 137
From: Toronto
Registered: Jul, 2003


Re: The 'Officially Certified Truth' About Kargil Posted: Dec 6, 2003 1:11 PM
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Mr.Shiekh, Heres answer number 3 :)

>>>PS: I know of the Institute of Strategic Studies in Islamabad run by respected Dr. Shrin Mazari. Is there another in Karachi? <<<<


>>>'Pakistan Institute of International Affairs' its been around since 1930...." For God's sake, Pakistan came into existance in 1947 but he claims that 'the Pakistan Institute of Internation affairs, of which he is a member, has been around since 1930!' What a bogus statement?<<<<

Now obviously you don't realise the fact that some institutions in pakistan are exisiting from the pre-partition era. I cannot believe you actually asked such a stupid and bogus question!!. I have tried to see the light side and although i greatly respect some of your statements as far as strategic studies are concerned, i have come to the conclusion that you are a complete idiot.
btw, for those intrested, this institue has one of the most complete libraries in the south asian region. There are alot of past foreign journals, books, papers etc that cannot be found anywhere in the country.

>>>4. It is obvious that Mr. Danial Jameel has an uncontrollable urge to lie, (just like the pack of Indian crossborder E-mail jackanapes/terrorists who prowl these forums to sidetrack the issue and spread Hindutva-fundamentalist, Neo-Nazi dezinformatsiya) a trait typical of all congenial, brazen, baldfaced, barefaced, boldfaced, revolting, pusillanimous liars.<<<

If any pakistani here, (apart from the 'US' living PAKI Mr.sheikh) thinks i am all of the above please let me know and why... ill greatly appreciate that.


>>>Off the cuff I have no hesitation in saying that Kargil operation, soon after India's Himalayan blunder at Pokharan in May 1998, was a brilliant stethoscopical military maneuver by the Pakistani planners which achieved its objective<<<

Once again i have to agree on this. The Kargil hill overlooked the indian supply route towards Kashmiri cities. Every winter troops on both sides withdrew from their forward locations only to return in summer. In'98, when the indians came back, we were already dug-in in the indian positions. Now tactically, this proxy war was a work of genius, at any given time you had 700,000 indian troops trying hard to flush out some 2000 to 3000 Kashmiri and Pakistani troops. The cost to india was huge and greater losses were clearly on the indian side. It also made perfect sense to one's conscious because the indains had done the exact same thing in Siachen earlier.
Politics was the only problem. The US was clearly on the indian side and even China was calling for de-escalation (the generals obviously thought that US would be tilted towards them). Another problem was the war spilling over to other fronts such as Punjab or Sindh. This is something Pakistan clearly had to aviod, as we were in no position for a long war (both supplies being short and the santions had taken its toll on our western military equipment).
My suggestion is that, if Pakistan launched this attack during the Afghan war (when US was hevily pro-pakistani), things would be very different. Therefore in my conclusion i believe that Tactically it was correct, only the timing was incorrect. However i personally don't believe that war is a solution and in the 90's this operation was always going to be a complete disaster.

#13
Amit Verma
a_verma@hotmail.com


Posts: 148
From: New York
Registered: Jan, 2003


Re: The 'Officially Certified Truth' About Kargil Posted: Dec 6, 2003 6:09 PM
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Danial

Therefore in my conclusion i believe that Tactically it was correct, only the timing was incorrect.

So my friend to sum it up, what would the end result of such an operation be......a BLUNDER. Thats exactly what the end result of the Kargil operation was for pakistan.

Regards

#14

null


Posts: 102
From: Not applicable
Registered: Sep, 2003


Re: The 'Officially Certified Truth' About Kargil Posted: Dec 8, 2003 1:23 PM
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Daniel:

Therefore in my conclusion i believe that Tactically it was correct, only the timing was incorrect
The prize trophy for the Kargil operation was always Islamabad and Mushy got it. So yes, tactically and timing wise, he was correct. Now all we have is the madari mazari leading some credibility to the entire operation with this "official certified truth".

On your post about 1930s, Ari Fliesher - the press sec for Bush had mentioned that US and Pak had an extradition treaty since 1930s! Even some pakistani postors here was praising Pakistani troops support to allies in World War II - yeah the war that ended in 1945!

#15
arnab gupta
arnabgupta@hotmail.com


Posts: 588
From: Australia
Registered: Jul, 2003


Re: The 'Officially Certified Truth' About Kargil Posted: Dec 8, 2003 8:15 PM
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Off the cuff I have no hesitation in saying that Kargil operation, soon after India's Himalayan blunder at Pokharan in May 1998, was a brilliant stethoscopical military maneuver by the Pakistani planners which achieved its objective<<<

Sheikh, Danial - don't be ridiculous - what was the objective? prove that Pak can launch a sneak attack? what after that? War is like chess - you have to think 20 moves ahead.
It was unpardonable stupidity on the part of pak - strategic planners to think that kargil could have achieved anything in favour of Pak. First, US and China do not want instability (unless they are causing it). So to expect support from them was moronic.
Even If Danial's assessment were to be taken at face value - about the timing being wrong - what if the timing had been right? It would be just a re-hash of the 1965 campaign - where Pak thought that they could meddle around in kashmir - without accounting for an Indian thrust towards lahore. It is such uni-dimensional thinking that gets the Pakis into trouble.
Indian campaign in Siachen was a form of cartographic warfare - she just ensured that a line of control existed, where none had been demarcated. Though, I feel siachen's strateic value is low - but perhaps the army knows better.
The only achievement of Kargil was that the paki army conquered islamabad, and today is requesting unconditional talks on "all issues including kashmir" with India.

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