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#1
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Former Taliban FM Economizes on Truth to Stay Politically Correct Posted: Sep 9, 2005 12:10 PM
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#2
nasah
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Posts: 1,168
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Re: Former Taliban FM Economizes on Truth to Stay Politically Correct Posted: Sep 9, 2005 7:23 PM
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Maal-e haram bood bu sooay haraam ruft...

....good riddance of those Jahillaans -- in thier unceremonious demise they afterall performed a good deed -- they took away a century old circular argument that became an obssession with some of the subcontinental Muslims that goes something like this: all ills that Muslims of the present suffer from is because there is no 'true Islami Hukoomut' anywhere in the world...

..well finally a 'true Islami hukoomut thanks to that one-eyed jack waas established momentarily and everybody saw what it looked....

with the auspicious demise of Talibans who should really be called Jahillaans -- thanks to Georg Bush -- we owe him one for that -- the 'Ummaa' has hopefully been cured of the Hallucination in this 21st century world.....

#3
Zak_Baloch
zakbaloch@yahoo.com


Posts: 137
From: US
Registered: Dec, 2004


Re: Former Taliban FM Economizes on Truth to Stay Politically Correct Posted: Sep 10, 2005 10:09 PM
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Talibans are the natural consequence of a puritan philosophy which considers that reasons behind the downfall of the Islamic Empire were not its failure to adopt itself to the modern sciences but infact its giving away the customs and laws practiced in the earlier Islamic society in Arab. Therefore, if women can be restricted to their household, if hands of a thief be cut and an adulterer be stoned to death, and people be stopped from shaving their beards and growing their hair and be forced to pray in the mosques then all the problems in world will end and Muslims will start ruling the world again.

This simple solution to the problems of the modern world resonates very well with the masses. Therefore, the most popular commentary of Quran, for the last 50 years, is 'Tafheem ul Quran' by Molana Modudi, who does not even considers the modern Muslims as real Muslims but states that in his Islamic State, a time would be given (6 months or 2 years? I forgot) during which these so called Muslims should either declare themselves as Kafirs or become ready to accept the 'Islamic' laws upon themselves. After the expiration of the limit, anyone switching from the Islam to the other religion (defined as Murtid) will be punished to the death. Remember the time frame given by Taliban to people to grow their beards.

There is no place for poetry, art, culture, free thinking and even the concept of a civilization is absent in this 'Islam'.

Majority of devoted Muslims in Pakistan establishment, army as well as street Mullahs today are inspired by this philosophy and if given opportunity they would do exactly the same in Pakistan what Taliban did in Afganistan.
(to be cont'd)

#4
Zak_Baloch
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Posts: 137
From: US
Registered: Dec, 2004


Re: Former Taliban FM Economizes on Truth to Stay Politically Correct Posted: Sep 10, 2005 10:42 PM
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Their claim is that their 'Islam' has the solution for all problems of the world, provided first the world should change itself according to them.

I once asked Hafiz Saeed, of Lashkare Tayyaba, that although a woman's witness is half that of a man but majority of Hadees are quoted by Hazrat Ayesha (RA) who was a woman. Would not it be appropriate to ask for another witness besides her? To my surprise, instead of saying that her character was beyond any doubt and hence we should trust her, he replied that 'she was only giving a news and was not a witness, therefore we should not question the hadees which are news in essence'. So whatever is the character of a woman, her witness is still half that of a man.

Another person listening to our conversation asked him why woman should not be given full rights of inheritance because the arguments for her having half the share in property had been that she did not share the financial responsibility and such argument has become invalid in modern age. As he struggled to find an answer that guy commented that though Hafiz Saeed claimed (in that meeting) that 'Islam' was a 'natural' religion (Deen-e-Fitrat) but there was no answer for this modern day problem. And this was the classic answer from Hafiz Sahib. 'Indeed Islam is the religion of Fitrat (nature) but you are not allowed to change the Fitrat'.

Of course, the time has stopped 1400 years ago and one is not allowed to move forward so that their 'Islam' could still be applicable. This reminds me a famous joke about a doctor who could only cure penumonia and cold and hence used to prescribe his patients to have a cold bath in open air during winter so that they would have the disease which he could cure.

Aine Nau say darna, Tarze Kuhan pay Arna
Manzil yehi kathan hay, Qaumon ki Zindagi main
'To be afraid of modern ways, to stress on the old values, is the biggest hurdle in the life of Nations'. (Iqbal)

PS I like to comment on influence of Taliban on Pakistan society and especially their impact on daily life of Shias, who were the major victims of these barbarians, if I find sometime.

#5
nasah
nasah29@aol.com


Posts: 1,168
From: USA
Registered: Aug, 2003


Re: Former Taliban FM Economizes on Truth to Stay Politically Correct Posted: Sep 11, 2005 7:50 AM
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thanks Zak for elaborating -- Muslims are frozen in time and space -- thanks to the likes of that Maududee we used to call Murdoodee....

......one of the unintended benefits of Partition was that India got rid of the Maududees -- and other Fazooloos (rejects) of the Jamiatul Ulmae Islam and the religious Lairs of Jamaate Islami -- the self styled self appointed misinterpreters of Islam....

....but the damage was already done --

these weirdos have the weirdest concept of progress in this modern world for the Muslims which goes something like this: -- Muslims can go forward ONLY by going backward to the 1400 century old Islam -- an impossibility in terms of ANY physical, chemical, biological, cultural, economics, political, technological Law....

and the results of this -- backward is forward philosophy -- progression by retrogression -- are evident everywhere in the Islamic world in general -- and on the subcontinent in particular -- in terms of Muslim Personal law -- Blasphemy law -- Honor Killing -- Hudood law -- Interest-less 'banking' etc....

.....and the poverty of Muslims in intellectual pursuits of science, arts, culture, inquiry, innovations,questioning, skepticism.....rationality.

.....what they got in return is cruelty of spirit -- an irrational certitude, self centered isolation from other communties concerns -- and an overpowering obsession with religion -- pushing them towards a selfish mindless pursuit of the escapist fantasized Afterlife.....as a massive praying machine...in the evenings......and an intrafaith killing machine.....in the day time.

#6
Fatin Khan
aliencynic@yahoo.co.uk


Posts: 661
From: Germany
Registered: Jun, 2004


Re: Former Taliban FM Economizes on Truth to Stay Politically Correct Posted: Sep 12, 2005 9:32 AM
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Thanks Baloch Sahib and Nasah for some good discussion in some time.
We need to understand the so called military mullah connection. I say it because, this is the single most potent factor responsible for the present state of affairs.
I say this because mullah with all his retrogressive thinking was always there in our society, but rendered innocent because everybody pretended to listen to him but
no one really took him very seriously. In fact so called
religious polmics (munazira) between mullahs of two different sects with some stupid discussion was just a source of entertainement for many. And no more. All this was changed by military's never ending thirst for power and to this end their inisistence on defending the "ideological" borders also (whatever that means).

What I would request Baloch Sahib, to shed some light on is about the dynamics of muslim middle-classes. And this is the problem of muslims all over the world which we really need to address. All the nations at different developmental stages, are pushed towards higer levels of development by innovative middle classes. This needs a level of economic prosperity of a considerable proportion of populace. Why is that throughout history of muslims, whenever urban populace provides such conditions for development, the middle classes with their newly acquired
economic freesom, repeatedly fall for self-killing, extreme religious orthodoxies instead of also giving chance to other innovative things like science, philosophy etc. Why Ghazali, Maudoodi, Shah Waliuulah always find greater following and bu-ali-Sina, Ibn-i-rushd, alkhwarzami and Salam have to be condemned to never rise again?
As for Taliban, they also manifest the nature of Afghan people which embodies embracing every idea with touching extremities. They brought communist revolution and honestly meant that, carrying it rigorously to its logical end. They tried talibanism and practiced it also with same austerity and rigour. Now they know it all and 'll never go for the same experience again (once they re-emrge from the present quagmire). Problem with Pakistan is different.
Pakistanis simmer their food etrenally on a low flame rather than reaching the ultimate experience of totally acepting or rejecting an idea. So our romance with for (in Nasah's words) "true islami hukoomat" is never going to end, and we 'll keep inventing stupid arguments to keep our romance alive. But never actually going for it, because we also fear that if idea failed our romance 'll also go with it.

#7
Fatin Khan
aliencynic@yahoo.co.uk


Posts: 661
From: Germany
Registered: Jun, 2004


Re: Former Taliban FM Economizes on Truth to Stay Politically Correct Posted: Sep 12, 2005 9:39 AM
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Baloch Sahib,
Please go for your comments on Taliban's impact on Shias in Pakistan. I am very fondly waiting for it.
Thanks

#8
nasah
nasah29@aol.com


Posts: 1,168
From: USA
Registered: Aug, 2003


Re: Former Taliban FM Economizes on Truth to Stay Politically Correct Posted: Sep 12, 2005 10:33 PM
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"So our romance with for (in Nasah's words) "true islami hukoomat" is never going to end, and we 'll keep inventing stupid arguments to keep our romance alive. But never actually going for it, because we also fear that if idea failed our romance 'll also go with it."(Fatin)

you may right Fatin -- in view of what's happening with Hisba in Peshawar -- Pakistan's romance with the Islamic State is indeed on a slow burn for decades -- reminds me of a couplet by Sahir Hoshiarpuri:

Zindagi upnee soolugtee si chitaa hai Sahir
nu tuo jultee hai nu yeh bujh kay dhuaaN hotee hai

#9
Dilber Khan
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Posts: 494
From: Japan
Registered: Sep, 2004


Re: Former Taliban FM Economizes on Truth to Stay Politically Correct Posted: Sep 13, 2005 1:55 AM
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> Therefore, if women
> can be restricted to their household, if hands of a
> thief be cut and an adulterer be stoned to death, and
> people be stopped from shaving their beards and
> growing their hair and be forced to pray in the
> mosques then all the problems in world will end and
> Muslims will start ruling the world again.


Baloch Sahib, these might be ideas of certain individuals or groups. The greatest beauty of Islam is that all its teachings are preserved in Quran and no one can change them. If Quran says that women must be restricted to home, then yes they should be. But does Quran say this? Same is true about other matters.

Just in the oppositon of certain rigid groups, we should not go on the other extreme and oppose everything Islamic (Mr. Nasah, this is especially for you).

For the matters of witness and inheritence, I think you might be aware of the ideas of Javed Ghamadi. I liked his arguments. Would you like to comment on those?

Half share is inheritence is only in daughter vs son's case. It seems very natural and logical to me that the major part of the property should remain in the same family. The daughters are more likely to become part of some other family after marraige and should enjoy the status, wealth and property of their new family, with lesser share from the previous family. Father and mother enjoy the same share, as there is generally no such issue of transfer of property to some other family. You might be aware that in some non-muslim societies (in many families in Japan too), the eldest son is responsible to take care of old parents and he gets the whole property they leave.

#10
Fatin Khan
aliencynic@yahoo.co.uk


Posts: 661
From: Germany
Registered: Jun, 2004


Re: Former Taliban FM Economizes on Truth to Stay Politically Correct Posted: Sep 13, 2005 7:25 AM
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Dilber Khan,
You may be right about what Quran dictates and what we love to think it should dictate. But what is the position of brilliant scholars like Ghamdi among semi-literate, gun-totting bearded politicians, having the audacity to call themselves "ulama-i-karam"?
Who listens to sane voices like that of Ghamdi anyway? We want to remain in a condition of being convinced by "jihad" rather than force of argument and knowledge.

#11
Fatin Khan
aliencynic@yahoo.co.uk


Posts: 661
From: Germany
Registered: Jun, 2004


Re: Former Taliban FM Economizes on Truth to Stay Politically Correct Posted: Sep 13, 2005 7:33 AM
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Exactly Nasah, This beutiful couplet just sums up the idea.

#12
Fatin Khan
aliencynic@yahoo.co.uk


Posts: 661
From: Germany
Registered: Jun, 2004


Re: Former Taliban FM Economizes on Truth to Stay Politically Correct Posted: Sep 13, 2005 7:52 AM
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Again to Dilber Khan,
Discussion about "inheritence" is different than that about
"witness" in a court of law. In case of inheritence you are absolutely right. Large aristocratic estates in England are preserved to this day because the inheritence goes only to the eldest son. It is true that after marriage a woman in our society may enjoy shares from two families, thus making sense of "1/2-portion" rule.
My point is: if this line of argument is accepted, should it be applied rigidly even in the cases where a woman remains unmarried? Perhaps we the male members of family 'll go for a strict literal interpretetion of inheritence
law. But then if we dont, possibilty of marriage of a woman after she recieves full share remains there.
All this needs a level of "secularisation" of religious
eddicts, by fresh legislation like:- A woman 'll recieve
a full share until she remains unmarried. Of course it calls for dilution of divinity of such family laws, but then "ijtehad" to adjust with changing times is meant for this purpose. As Iqbal in one of his adresses, links finality of prophethood with maturity of human reason, which no more needs strict divine grooming all the time.

#13
Dilber Khan
khandilber@yahoo.com


Posts: 494
From: Japan
Registered: Sep, 2004


Re: Former Taliban FM Economizes on Truth to Stay Politically Correct Posted: Sep 13, 2005 11:01 AM
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Mr. Fatin Khan

I cannot agree with the idea of secularization or Ijtihad in the matters which have been clearly stated in Quran. Designer of a product, say a software or a robot (sorry I cannot find a better example), is in the best position to write the best set of code or instructions for his product. About the inheritence "1/2 portion rule", we have to accept it if it is stated in Quran. you can argue that it is not clearly written in Quran, or it is stated with certain conditions (like rule of more than one marraige) etc etc. But if it is established that there are no 'iffs' and 'thens' in it, then we have to accept it as it is. Once again I would like to say that it is not gender based. Share of father and mother is same is the property of a son.

#14
Dilber Khan
khandilber@yahoo.com


Posts: 494
From: Japan
Registered: Sep, 2004


Re: Former Taliban FM Economizes on Truth to Stay Politically Correct Posted: Sep 13, 2005 11:17 AM
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Fatin Khan,

About witness please refer to
http://www.understanding-islam.com/related/text.asp?type=question&qid=681

Don't you think argument is quite logical? This is a very good example of the case in which we can argue or "secularize", if you like, the teachings. The article simply challenges that the general concept of half witness is a misconception and is based on wrong argument. I will welcome if you come up with any such argument about half inheritence rule for daughters (not WOMEN). But if you cannot, and if you beleive in God, then you have to accept His right to make certain rules for you which might not seem logical to you.

#15
nasah
nasah29@aol.com


Posts: 1,168
From: USA
Registered: Aug, 2003


Re: Former Taliban FM Economizes on Truth to Stay Politically Correct Posted: Sep 13, 2005 3:02 PM
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" The greatest beauty of Islam is that all its teachings are preserved in Quran and no one can change them. If Quran says that women must be restricted to home, then yes they should be. But does Quran say this? Same is true about other matters"(Dilber)

Now now Dilber -- here we are on slippery grounds -- here we are talking about Quran as the Deep Freezer for the 'Ummaa' -- in which the Muslim should stay frozen in time a space -- till Eternity!

now would you say -- If Quran says women should be beaten if they disobey their husbands at home, "then yes they should be".

But does Quran say this?

yes Quran says that in Suratunnisa -- does that entitle Dilber to beat his spouse -- would Dilber bring that as the ground to the police called by his spouse when they start to lock him for spousal abuse....?

obviously not -- this is exactly the problem that Fatin talks about the romance of even educated Muslims --Pakistani or Indian -- Arabs or Phillipino Muslims -- their infatuation -- their hanky panky with the LITERAL retrograde Talibani Peasant's Islam....

Quran is a holy book of Spiritual Islam -- for spiritual comfort and solace for devout Muslims -- like Bible is for the Christians -- TOrah is for the Jewish -- Baghvad Gita is for the Hindus -- Quran is NOT Das Kapital for the Muslim Marxists -- Quran is not Mein Kampf for Nazis among the Umma -- it is not the Encylopedia of biological, chemical, biochemical, physical biophysical science and Electronics and Copumuter Technology -- nor it is the World Book of Anthropology and Palaentology --

it is one of the greatest Book for the spiritually inclined -- NOT for homicidally inclined -- NOR for suicidally inclined.....

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