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#1
Administrator
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Registered: Dec, 1969


A Despicable Check List of Musharraf's Pakistan Posted: May 30, 2005 11:50 PM
 
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#2
san
i_m_sans@yahoo.com


Posts: 204
From: India
Registered: May, 2005


Re: A Despicable Check List of Musharraf's Pakistan Posted: May 31, 2005 2:20 AM
 
The author writes:-

It matters because throughout history it has been the individual fighter, Mard-e-Momin, man of faith, man of vision who has changed the course of history and has been the rallying factor for the downfall of tyrants.

To all those on the verge of collapse or who are in the grip of momentary weakness stand tall and matter.


This is the precise thinking which is needed by Pakistan. Destinies of Nations are not changed by the men at the top. They are changed by the men at the bottom.

Ironically, by paying heeds to the Islamic Philosphies like one mentioned by the writer, Indians have changed subtly a lot but Pakistanis remain passive onlookers.

#3
partha
sarathywodeyar@gmail.com


Posts: 84
From: Australia
Registered: May, 2005


Re: A Despicable Check List of Musharraf's Pakistan Posted: May 31, 2005 3:25 AM
 
The only people who took it on themselves as per news item were a group of Kashmiri freedom fighters who were on their way to blow up Baglihar but apparently got caught by the Indians, a typical case of bad planning and execution. Well so was Kargil anyway.

Unclear what is the line of thinking of the Author. Is he trying to say that Baglihar is to be blown up, but was unfortunately thwarted? Or that Kargil was to be executed, but not in the way that it was ?

Confusing. Can someone explain?

#4
SC Gupta
scgupta5@indiatimes.com


Posts: 283
From: India
Registered: May, 2005


Re: A Despicable Check List of Musharraf's Pakistan Posted: May 31, 2005 3:25 AM
 
San I disagree to the tone of your email.

Bihar, UP , West Bengal, ..etc. are perfect examples of corruption and lack of development.

I think the basic issue of the article is corruption.

Agreed that we have a better developed industry than Pakistan, .. but then ..... Bihar .... Lalu Prasad Yadav, West Bengal..... Jyoti Basu ........ U.P. ... almost all politicians ....

We should explore our own great (oops sorry grate) politicians also

#5
Dr. Asif Raza
rhthemdevine@hotmail.com


Posts: 81
From: Australia
Registered: May, 2005


Re: A Despicable Check List of Musharraf's Pakistan Posted: May 31, 2005 3:41 AM
 
Visionary, I loved your article. Nice tits and bits. It contains a lot to learn from it. Hope, if you get chance to read this forum, you may upkeep with your vision. (Your each and every paragraph is making my heart to speak up).
I can only & WILL surely pray for that 50 year old guy to keep his long life prinicples. Hopefully, even if he has done some mistake, he would not repeat it. (Hopefully, he is not the one, i am thinking about.)

Regards,

Dr Asif Raza :/

#6
san
i_m_sans@yahoo.com


Posts: 204
From: India
Registered: May, 2005


Re: A Despicable Check List of Musharraf's Pakistan Posted: May 31, 2005 5:14 AM
 
Post No.4-Mr.Gupta-- I dont want to say that we have become "doodh key dhuley" and that we have no problems left. We have great problems lying ahead but the thing is every one of us, in his capacity, is fighting with these problems. You will agree with me that we have come a long way in the past 15 or so years and we are optimistic that in the next 15 years, we will win over some,though not all, of the problems too.

On the other hand, pakistanis are not that lucky. First of all we must agree that they feel that their country is not going the way it should. But they have been just reduced to onlookers without any say in the affairs of their country.

Lallus of India are atleast afraid of public-power. He has just narrowly escaped because UPA was in power at Delhi otherwise being powerless in Bihar, he would have been made an example by the BJP. But the Lallos of Pakistan dont give a damn to to the public.

#7
Ellen Bobi
ellenellen123@hotmail.com


Posts: 62
From: Islamabad
Registered: May, 2005


Re: A Despicable Check List of Musharraf's Pakistan Posted: May 31, 2005 6:32 AM
 
Once khalil Jibran said" My pain is due to breaking of the shell that conceals one`s understanding".

I think view of the writer, supported by the realities bases upon his emotions. He has ignored the hard facts of our society which have resulted in unevenness, injustice, violence, cheating etc. Visionary view is comparable with the developed countries like Scandinavian state. But listen all the above facts does not matter in rest of the world.

Where is the independent, human, impartial, fair and honest view of the powerful corners of the world upon United states unjustified attacks on Afghanistan and Iraq as indicated by Michel Moore documentary " Fahrenheit 9/11. Where are the great Arab rulers who even did not dare to knock the doors of ICJ just to prolong their monarchies.

The great Americans did not step forward into the world politics untill they equipped themselves with the breadth of knowledge and research. What our politicians have been doing here? They have been satisfying their enmities with their rivals by opening schools in opponent’s areas. What are we doing now-a-days. There are several universities in central Punjab, Karachi, Rawalpindi and Islamabad. But only a few in lower Punjab and negligible in Baluchistan and Sindh interior? Why are we doing the same with the baluchi, Sindies, Pakhtoons and saraikies which we did with Bengalis in east Pakistan?

Is there any body who may hang bureaucracy for their wrong planning which has almost made every sector corrupt and less efficient? Is there any body who may point out that CSPs/PCSs officers are jack of all trades but master of none and should be replaced by the educated people of their respective field? Is there anybody who may say aloud the government to appoint DCOs from other groups of technical and high caliber officers and to avoid posting of only the CSPs or PCS officers as a treatment of every disease? Is there anybody who may copy administrative system of the developed countries where the bureaucrats are responsible to the common people and are not the master and holy cows?

Although we have a simple excuse that Jatoi, Bugti, Mazari, Legahri, Makhdooms and other waderas had been granted portfolios and they failed to develop their areas, yet why failed our 5 years plans which are prepared by the bureaucracy and covers development for every area? Why the culprits did not recognize that feudal had always been working against the wishes of their subjects and it was duty of the government functionaries to develop the oppressed communities.

All the above facts say that we should not compare ourselves with the civilized nations where many things mentioned in the articles matter. But don’t matter in uncivilized nations. If we go back to European history, then 16th century was worst as compared to our today situation. Galileo was fixed and charged by the church. There were lines for Bread. Famines were common. Even today, it is said that we should not go to the market of USA without having some dollars in our pockets. What happened in 9/11 incidence where thousands of innocents were killed by the unknown brutals.
Our situation is even better. Actually we are passing through a transitory phase. Our government is doing its efforts to do better. But all this can’t be unchanged by a single click. We should hope for the best and correct ourselves rather pointing fingers to any body else.

Be optimistic.Long live pakistan

#8
mrsingh
mrsingh999@indiatimes.com


Posts: 61
From: India
Registered: May, 2005
Disabled

Re: A Despicable Check List of Musharraf's Pakistan Posted: May 31, 2005 10:00 AM
 
Allina bibi,

Here's somethink to educate you and keep you busy for a while :

Understanding Pakistan
Jinnah's Pakistan: An Interview with MA Jinnah, and how the Pakistan of Yesterday is the Pakistan of Today
http://iref.homestead.com/Messiah.html

Know Your Pakistan
http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/MONITOR/ISSUE6-1/Shiv.html

The Monkey Trap: A synopsis of Indo-Pak relations
http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/MONITOR/ISSUE5-2/khayyam.html

A landmark article that demolishes myths built up about Pakistan
http://www.saag.org/papers8/paper710.html

Pakistani Education, or how pakistan became what it is: Curricula and textbooks in Pakistan
http://www.sdpi.org/archive/nayyar_report.htm

Making Enemies, Creating Conflict: Pakistan's Crises of State and Society. A book written by Pakistanis on Pakistan.
http://members.tripod.com/~no_nukes_sa/Contents.html

Should Pakistan Be Broken Up? by Gul Agha
http://pakistan70.tripod.com/gul.html

Pakistan and Terrorism
Pakistani sponsoring of Terrorism
http://www.geocities.com/charcha_2000/
http://pak-terror.freeservers.com/Terror_as_a_Policy_Tool.htm

Ethinc cleansing in Pakistan - a statistical analysis
http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/MONITOR/ISSUE6-2/sridhar.html

A chronicle of genocide by the Pakistan army
http://www.gendercide.org/case_bangladesh.html

Inside Jihad - How Pakistan sponsors terrorists in India
http://www.time.com/time/asia/magazine/2001/0205/kashmir_sb1.html

Pakistan's Role in the Kashmir Insurgency - Op-ed by Rand's Peter Chalk
http://www.rand.org/hot/op-eds/090101JIR.html

http://www.boycott-pakistan.com/
This is a list of Pakistani businesses that may be aiding and funding terror against India and other countries.

Pakistan Today: General Background articles
On the Frontier of Apocalypse: Christopher Hitchens seminal article on Pakistan today
http://newsstuff.0catch.com/article5.htm

Nuclear Enabler - Pakistan today is the most dangerous place on Earth by Jim Hoagland
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A8422-2002Oct24.html

A Slender Reed in Pakistan - Editorial in the Christian Science Monitor
http://www.csmonitor.com/2003/1229/p08s03-comv.html

Seymour Hersh Interview
http://www.pbs.org/now/transcript/transcript_hersh.html

Pakistan's Nuclear Crimes (Wash. Post editorial)
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A14272-2004Feb4.html

Commentary: The real culprit of 9/11? http://www.washingtontimes.com/upi-breaking/20040722-051231-9906r.htm

Thanks.

#9
Sheraz Ahmed
docsheraz@gmail.com


Posts: 213
From: U.K
Registered: Feb, 2005


Re: A Despicable Check List of Musharraf's Pakistan Posted: May 31, 2005 11:57 AM
 
Mr Singh read this too

Indian army official sold secret plan to Ayub in ’65: Gohar
From Afzal Khan (Our correspondent)


ISLAMABAD — Former president Ayub Khan bought an Indian secret plan to attack Pakistan in 1965 from an Indian army brigadier for only Rs20,000, former president’s son Gohar Ayub Khan has revealed in his autobiography which is likely to be published before the end of this year.

for full article

http://www.khaleejtimes.com/DisplayArticle.asp?xfile=data/subcontinent/2005/May/subcontinent_May1184.xml§ion=subcontinent&col=

happy reading

#10
Sheraz Ahmed
docsheraz@gmail.com


Posts: 213
From: U.K
Registered: Feb, 2005


Re: A Despicable Check List of Musharraf's Pakistan Posted: May 31, 2005 12:03 PM
 
correct link

http://www.khaleejtimes.com/DisplayArticle.asp?xfile=data/subcontinent/2005/May/subcontinent_May1184.xml§ion=subcontinent&col=

#11
Sheraz Ahmed
docsheraz@gmail.com


Posts: 213
From: U.K
Registered: Feb, 2005


Re: A Despicable Check List of Musharraf's Pakistan Posted: May 31, 2005 12:15 PM
 
links get altered after posting so here is full article.

Indian army official sold secret plan to Ayub in ’65: Gohar
From Afzal Khan (Our correspondent)

31 May 2005



ISLAMABAD — Former president Ayub Khan bought an Indian secret plan to attack Pakistan in 1965 from an Indian army brigadier for only Rs20,000, former president’s son Gohar Ayub Khan has revealed in his autobiography which is likely to be published before the end of this year.


The Indian brigadier, according to Gohar, needed the money for his wife who wanted to buy equipment for fulfilling her hobby of canning fruits and vegetables.

He said Pakistani agents active in New Delhi exploited this passion of Brigadier’s wife and bought the plan.

The book is based, besides personal experiences of Gohar, on the diary, which Gohar used to maintain regularly. Gohar himself was inducted as personal staff of Ayub Khan after he imposed martial law in 1958. Gohar, 68, talked about some revelations he has made in the book in an interview with The News. In the 90s, Gohar Ayub also served as speaker National Assembly and foreign minister. He is an eyewitness to imposition of first martial law by his father General Ayub and has been attending many important meetings during his father’s 10-year rule.

When asked about the name of Indian army brigadier, Gohar said he would give clear indications in his book to expose the identity of the Indian military officer, who is still alive.

This would be a ‘bomb shell’ for the Indian army as the same officer later served at a very top position before retiring ‘honourably’. He said he met the Indian officer in London in 1967.

Gohar said Ayub Khan was preparing the Pakistan army to fight a war with India to get Kashmir liberated. For this very purpose, he followed a long term policy ever since he became army chief in fifties and then staged a coup in 1968. Gohar said under Ayub, Pakistan joined the Baghdad pact whoch ensured flow of US arms. The equipment given to Pakistan by the Americans was more advanced in technology than that available to the Indian army, he said.

He claimed that the Pakistani army was secretly saving the ammunition to dodge the Americans who were keeping the record of military equipment being given to Pakistan.Secondly, he said, Ayub Khan deputed his intelligence network active in New Delhi to penetrate into Indian Directorate of Military Operations to get their war plan.

Gohar said a brigadier was traced who agreed to sell the war plan against payment of Rs 20,000 that was made in London. The plan was rechecked from other intelligence sources in New Delhi.

#12
Rabb Rakha
speechfreedom@yahoo.com


Posts: 1,609
Registered: Jul, 2004
Disabled

Re: A Despicable Check List of Musharraf's Pakistan Posted: May 31, 2005 12:42 PM
 
Doc,

Shiraz, why do you go to Khaleej Times. This has been in news in Indian Media for few days. Here is a link:

http://www.hindustantimes.com/news/181_1381712,0008.htm

Dont derail the topic now and paste full articles. Let the investigations reveal the truth. Gohar may be trying to discredit Indian Army or some officer. His words are not gospel. There may be some dishonest officers just like that another RAW agent.

#13
Sheraz Ahmed
docsheraz@gmail.com


Posts: 213
From: U.K
Registered: Feb, 2005


Re: A Despicable Check List of Musharraf's Pakistan Posted: May 31, 2005 2:17 PM
 
RR
why do you go to Khaleej Times. This has been in news in Indian Media for few days

i usually avoid reading indian news sites due to lot of ads and pop ups.

Dont derail the topic now

what about mr singh post?

There may be some dishonest officers just like that another RAW agent.

its actually big failure of indian intelligence agencies of that time if its true.

#14
Ellen Bobi
ellenellen123@hotmail.com


Posts: 62
From: Islamabad
Registered: May, 2005


Re: A Despicable Check List of Musharraf's Pakistan Posted: May 31, 2005 2:40 PM
 
The author is not credible. If history of the past is probed then the writer becomes responsibe behind the fall of Ayub Khan; when the reports of those days reveal that the writer was responsible in wheat smuggling and the nation had to face wheat crisis and used maize instead of wheat.

Under the abobe historical events, how an alleged smuggler`s view be an authetic one? Why he did not exploit this secret to demoralise Indian army when tension between pakistan and India was at the peak.

War is like chess. Its tactics change with time. If for a while we believe that we purchased war plan, then why the Indian army did not change its strategy.

The statement of the writer seems to be undermine Pakistani army including his own father who used unfair spy tactics rather using the war starategy to fight with the enemy.

On the otherhand contribution of our forces can never be neglected who faught very bravley and defeated foe of that time. The soul of our Shaheeds will be not in peace by such statements. I assure that writer attempt will never be substantiated.

#15
san
i_m_sans@yahoo.com


Posts: 204
From: India
Registered: May, 2005


Re: A Despicable Check List of Musharraf's Pakistan Posted: Jun 1, 2005 1:17 AM
 
What Gauhar Sahib is stating, the facts speak the reverse. The setback Pakistan suffered in 1965 was more because it did not make right assessment of the strength of Indian Forces and in the process opened too many fronts(thats what we have heard in India from time to time). Secondly, Pakistan had no idea of Lahore Offensive and was got abosulutely offguard when Indian forces marched towards and reached Lahore. These two failures let the debacle of Operation Gibraltar for Pakistan.

If statements made by Gauhar Sahib are correct, then why these intelligence failures. The matter was being discussed on an Indian TV Channel and the panel was of the view that either Gauhar Sahib's information is incorrect or even if his statement is correct then either someone fooled Ayub Khan with a bogus War Plan or the information which indeed reached Ayub Khan was part of counter-intelligence offensive i.e. wrong and false information is deliberatley passed on to the enemy through a credible source. It may be one of the reason, sccording to the Panel, that Ayub Khan and others did not mention this in their autobiographies.

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