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After So Many Goof-Ups Can We Trust the Judgment of General Musharraf
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#1
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After So Many Goof-Ups Can We Trust the Judgment of General Musharraf Posted: Jun 30, 2005 11:00 PM
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#2
Indian
indian@aol.com


Posts: 533
From: post
Registered: Sep, 2003


Re: After So Many Goof-Ups Can We Trust the Judgment of General Musharraf Posted: Jul 1, 2005 3:10 AM
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Asking the question about a general is absurd.

The question is Why do the Pakistanis keep accepting army rule? Does not make sense.

These people enter the defence establishment to protect the country - that is it. They have no real ideas about civil administration, about listening to people about functioning on a world stage.

Part of their training is obeying orders and giving orders, no questions asked, and that is just what they expect when they use their guns to forcibly enter into public life.

They jail politicians, ban journalists who ask probing questions, they protect their own khakis (whether it be rape in Punjab, Balochistan or elsewhere, they beat up policemen doing their duty at the traffic lights), ban free flow of information, start up religious parties to promote divisions, they are also corrupt - the list is endless and let's not forget Kargil.

Pakistani civil society and politicians are now subservient to the army. When freely elected politicians do come in - they need the army's blessings to carry out their jobs.

They should not be expected to run the country but for whatever reason they believe they are the best. What has the army rule for all these years achieved for Pakistan.

Weak economy (even if it growing at present - mostly due to loan rescheduling), not a diversified economy, low literacy rates, corruption, international reputation in ruins because of the jihadi culture, extremism and nuclear bazaar.

Kick them out - bring in elected politicians who listen to the people and army reports and is accountable to them, otherwise this topic will never end for Pakistan

#3
partha
sarathywodeyar@gmail.com


Posts: 84
From: Australia
Registered: May, 2005


Re: After So Many Goof-Ups Can We Trust the Judgment of General Musharraf Posted: Jul 1, 2005 3:27 AM
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Indian #2

Kick them out - bring in elected politicians who listen to the people and army reports and is accountable to them, otherwise this topic will never end for Pakistan

Easier said than done !!!!!!

One the army has tasted blood, it is difficult, if not impossible to get them back to barracks for good. No dictator wants to voluntarily let go of power. In addition, they would have made so many enemies during their misrule, they will never be let alone, if they try to get out and try to live like normal citizens. This fear to an extent also keeps them in power. There are so many examples all around the world.

Even after so called peoples revolutions to overthrow oppressive regimes (Shah Pahlavi, White Rhodesia etc) the subsequent rulers tend to overlive their utility !

Pakistan, more than any other country, needs some solution urgently because of the sectarian and relgious trouble fermenting there.

#4
nasah
nasah29@aol.com


Posts: 1,168
From: USA
Registered: Aug, 2003


Re: After So Many Goof-Ups Can We Trust the Judgment of General Musharraf Posted: Jul 1, 2005 8:46 AM
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can we trust the 'judgment' of Musharraf?

indeed a 64 dollar quation...

the road to success for Mr. Mushrraf is littered with the broken remains of his poor judgments after poor judgments...

...the idiotic hijacking of an elected government at gunpoint -- the brazen imbecility of Kargil misadventure -- the use of stupid Taliban -- the most shallow pit -- as the anchorsheet of Mushrrafian 'Strategic Depth'...

and finally the ultimate somersaults -- the mother of all U turns -- in case of Muskhtaran bibi...

......in fact Mr. Musharraf's career has become a story of instant and frequent U turns so much so -- that from outside Mr. Musharraf looks like he is turning into a Whirling Dervish of ever changing Pakistan national interests..

.....in the Khanqaah of Hazrat Bush Rahmatullah Alaih...

the amazing thing is that Mr. Musharraf -- to his credit -- as much as he loves to spit in public places carelessly -- without thinking -- has no qualms in licking his own spit in public -- promptly as well -- without thinking -- without even batting his eyes...

...especially if told to do so by Mohtarma Rice or Hazrat Bush -- as a good use of soldierly obedience training....

....indeed an admirable quality in a self-respecting head of a self-respecting country....

#5
Indian
indian@aol.com


Posts: 533
From: post
Registered: Sep, 2003


Re: After So Many Goof-Ups Can We Trust the Judgment of General Musharraf Posted: Jul 1, 2005 9:26 AM
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nasah

thay are supposed U-turns, nobody believes there is a seious U turn anywhere, from his terror camps, support for Taliban in his quest for startegic depth and his lust for power.

He is playing a waiting game - he knows sooner or later things will change.

#6
Masood
m.bhatti@c2i.net


Posts: 28
From: Norway
Registered: Dec, 2004


Re: After So Many Goof-Ups Can We Trust the Judgment of General Musharraf Posted: Jul 1, 2005 11:57 AM
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Dont blame Musharraf only.We all are CHOTAY CHOTAY Musharafeen. Pakistani society is knitted and woven by us. Our rulers are not our choice but our punishment. Why? Our poet IQBAL has explained it in a better way:
FITRAT AFRAAD SAY AGHMAAZ TO KAR LAYTI HAI
KABHI KARTI NAHIN MILLAT KAY GUNAAHON KO MOAAAF.
Nature can ignore individual sins, but doesnt forgive the whole UMMAH.
The prophet of ISLAM ( PBUH) had given a clear warning in this regard:
@Aahmaalokom , ammalokomm@
Your deeds are are your rulers.
If you live a neat and clean life, you are given good rulers. Otherwise you are free to suffer.

#7
Subedar Shabeer Shah (SJ)
subedar-shabeer@excite.com


Posts: 63
From: 16 Punjab
Registered: Oct, 2003


Re: After So Many Goof-Ups Can We Trust the Judgment of General Musharraf Posted: Jul 2, 2005 10:40 AM
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Hats off to Ms Nighat Yasmeen
A superb analysis of the dismal state of affairs.

#8
sohail anwer
sohail_anwer1234@yahoo.com.au


Posts: 7
From: australia
Registered: Jul, 2005
Disabled

Re: After So Many Goof-Ups Can We Trust the Judgment of General Musharraf Posted: Jul 3, 2005 3:06 AM
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CHOTAY CHOTAY Musharafeen are made in sixty years so we can't remove them at once. better we all would try to be BADE musharaf in colonies of pakistan. this way one day some one of us can become BIGGEST musharraf of pakistan. who knows? after all this musharraf also came in the same way

#9
Hassan Nasir
hassannasir@mail.com


Posts: 52
From: Gujranwala
Registered: Nov, 2002


Re: After So Many Goof-Ups Can We Trust the Judgment of General Musharraf Posted: Jul 4, 2005 3:32 AM
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A nice addition to this article would be

EDITORIAL: Mai and Musharraf, Govt and Pakistan
http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default.asp?page=story_1-7-2005_pg3_1

...Some questions and answers are required. If General Musharraf was right to stop Mai from proceeding abroad ten days ago, how is he right again in letting her go abroad now? Clearly, if the conspiracy by vested interests to malign Pakistan was in full swing then, it can hardly have disappeared overnight. This means that ten days ago General Musharraf didn’t have too much faith in Mai or in her patriotism to combat such a conspiracy but he has since been reassured that she is now mentally equipped to fend off all anti-Pakistan vested interests and can therefore be allowed to move around relatively, but not absolutely, freely. How has Mai’s outlook been patriotically transformed so quickly? Clearly, the poor woman’s wretched experience at the hands of the prime minister’s advisor on women’s affairs, the police, the junior home minister and an array of presidential advisors has “persuaded” her to cooperate with the government and allay its fears that she might exploit her situation to hurt the image of the government. “I can never think of maligning Pakistan”, she says, adding “General Musharraf has been kind to me.”

... Indeed, the truth is that if it hadn’t been for this international outrage, General Musharraf would probably have remained too preoccupied in worldly matters to cast a glance in the direction of Mai. In fact, it may be truer still to say that having been rudely woken up to its international consequences, General Musharraf may have been compelled to personally play a role in nudging his government to aggressively present its case before the Supreme Court.

.... The point we are making is simple. General Musharraf is certainly more sympathetic to the plight of women in Pakistan than many of his predecessors. But the fact is that on the ground the Musharraf regime has done nothing significant to alleviate the lot of abused women institutionally. All the oppressive laws and practices against women remain on the books. But the buck stops at General Musharraf. If the lack of democracy and justice and accountability in Pakistan is not Pakistan’s fault but that of its rulers and governments, how can Pakistan be maligned for the lack of women’s rights in the country? Indeed, whenever rights are trampled upon in Pakistan it is certain people who trample such rights and it is the rulers who protect them and don’t punish them who are ultimately responsible.
Mai’s case has tarnished the Musharraf regime’s image and not that of Pakistan’s reality. That is the way the cookie has crumbled. Instead of holding an international conference in Islamabad on abused women from all over the world so that “Pakistan isn’t singled out”, General Musharraf would be better advised to continually lean hard on his prime minister, on his women’s ministry and chief ministers and advisors and MNAs and MPAs and DCOs and nazims to deliver on his enlightened agenda inside Pakistan. If there is any conspiracy, it is not against Pakistan. *

#10
nasah
nasah29@aol.com


Posts: 1,168
From: USA
Registered: Aug, 2003


Re: After So Many Goof-Ups Can We Trust the Judgment of General Musharraf Posted: Jul 4, 2005 10:16 AM
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"If General Musharraf was right to stop Mai from proceeding abroad ten days ago, how is he right again in letting her go abroad now?"......(Editorial Daily Times, Pakistan)

Mr. Musharraf is right again because -- Mr. Musharraf is a quantum particle of omnipresent stupidity -- he can be at two places at the same time.....

the fact that he can perform such impossible feats -- in real life -- is due to Mr. Musharraf's obedience training as a superlatively mindless soldier:

as I have said before -- "Mr. Musharraf -- to his credit -- as much as he loves to spit in public places -- carelessly -- without thinking -- has no qualms in licking his own spit in public -- promptly -- without thinking -- without even batting his eyes...

...especially if told to do so by Mohtarma Rice or Hazrat Bush...
."

#11
Fazal Curmally
fhcurmally@yahoo.com


Posts: 31
From: Karachi - Pakistan
Registered: Jun, 2005


Re: After So Many Goof-Ups Can We Trust the Judgment of General Musharraf Posted: Jul 14, 2005 10:48 PM
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Dear Partha,

It seems experts have taken over without understanding one element of pakistani legal History. The Supreme Court has validated Military taleovers repeatedly on the basis that any state is better than chaos.

General Musharraf has done no wrong.because there is no such thing as absolute right. Our politicans have let us down repeatedly.So the fewer there are from the old guard, the better it is for us.

Pakistan is not broke or weak economically. It is better than a 110 Billion US $ economy. This is quite favourable when you compare it with India's which is below 650 Billion US $.And population wise, we are around 150 million to India's 1012 Million. We are a big country treat us like that. Perhaps it would be in our mutual interests to be friends rather than poking at each other. Think about it.

As for Mukhtaran Mai, the courts will decide. Give them a chance to do so. The General did take her passport away. Why dont you look at it this wway, that she had a passport in the first place.

#12
partha
sarathywodeyar@gmail.com


Posts: 84
From: Australia
Registered: May, 2005


Re: After So Many Goof-Ups Can We Trust the Judgment of General Musharraf Posted: Jul 14, 2005 11:16 PM
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Mr Fazal,

You can chose to live in denial, but the basic fundamentals need to be set right in Pakistan.

How can you trash democracy just because some leaders were in the past corrupt and inefficient ? What we are trying to say is that the system itself is not to be blamed. That is, power has to be given to the people of the land, rather than to one person. Never lose sight of the fact that dictators do what is best for THEMSELVES first. All your previous leaders have done the same. Why should Musharraf be any different?

Another problem with dictatorship is that they can be easily bought, coerced, or manipulated by major powers. This does'nt happen easily with democracies, where the leader is answerable to the parliament and opposition constantly on his back.

If BB and Nawaz Shareef are bad, fine. Dump them and elect someone who is smart and truly represents the people. The beauty of the system is that YOU can change it. I know it is frustrating to have corrupt leaders, but democracy takes time to mature and eventually you will get good governance. Indians have the same frustrations. But they have been able to change governments because of democracy.

If you think Pakistan is stronger economically than India due to its size, it's fine too. We only wish you people take charge of your country and dont let it slide the way it is appearing to do. Dont consider it poking at you, actually it is none of our business.

#13
Fazal Curmally
fhcurmally@yahoo.com


Posts: 31
From: Karachi - Pakistan
Registered: Jun, 2005


Re: After So Many Goof-Ups Can We Trust the Judgment of General Musharraf Posted: Jul 23, 2005 12:51 AM
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Dear Partha,

Why do you presume we have trashed democracy? We have a democracy and it is functioning and functioning well.

We don't need people to lecture us on democracy or what it means. India practices democracy according to its Constitution and Pakistan does so in accordance with its Constitution. We dont have the same Constitution. I trust you agree with me on this atleast.

Before you make such statements about trashing democracy,, may I suggest you read up on our Constitution and tell us then where we are wrong. Any helpful and valid criticism is always welcome.

Cheers

#14
Fazal Curmally
fhcurmally@yahoo.com


Posts: 31
From: Karachi - Pakistan
Registered: Jun, 2005


Re: After So Many Goof-Ups Can We Trust the Judgment of General Musharraf Posted: Jul 23, 2005 1:02 AM
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Dear Indian,

Greetings.

You paint a picture of outright desolation in Pakistan.
perhaps you may have certain biases or a very wrong picture about us. We in Pakistan really don't care how you live in India. I am sure the Indian record is not free from blemishes. Ours is certainly not.

Why don't you visit Pakistan and see for yourself what we are about and what we are doing.Consider if you will we were the same country till 1947. I'm sure we haven't grown horns and a pointed tail and cloven feet since then in Pakistan. We are going about doing our thing. May God bless you and give you the courage to do your thing.

Give us the right to make what you choose to call mistakes
we certainly accord you the same privilege.

#15
Fazal Curmally
fhcurmally@yahoo.com


Posts: 31
From: Karachi - Pakistan
Registered: Jun, 2005


Re: After So Many Goof-Ups Can We Trust the Judgment of General Musharraf Posted: Jul 23, 2005 1:12 AM
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Dear Nasah,

Thank you for the high opinion you have of President Pervez Musharraf. Yes we are at present, extremely unwillingly in the bargah of Bush and Mohtarma Rice. We will by His Grace, leave it when we have done our part in the war against terror.

Dont hold it against us. We are not terrorists.

I don't know if you are a US citizen or not but your address is from the USA. Try and understand, we are fighting your war. We have more than twice the number of troops on the Afghan border, 74,000 to be exact, than the entire number of NATO and US troops in the country. You think it doesn't hurt? How I wish we could pull the troops back and let you stew in your own juices.

We gave our word and by God iy hurts keeping it.

I am not a terrorist and hold no sympathy for them.

You pick a fight and we fight it.

I trust you understand how a pakistani views he situation.

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